NOTE: This week’s update is a transcription of a live interview done as part of the Tilly’s Trans Tuesdays podcast. Special thanks to Nomi-Be for the transcription!
Tilly Bridges: Welcome to Tilly’s Trans Tuesdays! This week, we interview Nicole Maines, the driving force behind DC Comics’ Dreamer, both in comics and on screen, in anticipation of the Dream Girls weekly limited series that begins releasing next week.
Nicole Maines: Hi!
TB: Hi!
NM: I didn’t know… if that was something I should interrupt.
TB: It’s fine, it’s fine!
NM: Hi, thank you for having me, I’m excited to be here!
TB: Hi, I’m Tilly Bridges, your host, and I’m joined by my writing partner, my best friend, my wife, our token cis representation, my own real-life dream girl, Susan Bridges.
Susan Bridges: Hello!
TB: Our guest this week, as you gathered from the intro, because you are great at paying attention, is actor and writer Nicole Maines, who played TV’s first trans superhero dreamer on the CW Supergirl show, and you’ve also seen her in Bit, Yellowjackets, Clean Slate, and more. She is the author of It Gets Better… Except When It Gets Worth Worse: And Other Unsolicited Truths I Wish Someone Had Told Me, and is the writer of multiple comics for DC, including Suicide Squad: Dream Team, Bad Dream: A Dreamer Story, and is the co-writer of the Justice League Intergalactic Special (which was so good!) and the upcoming Dream Girls limited series. Welcome, Nicole!
NM: Hi, thank you for having me, I’m very excited to be here!
TB: Okay, well, before we get into talking about Dreamer, I wanted to ask you a question about acting, because I want to get your thoughts on this, as I… I talk so much on the show about representation in media, and what is the landscape like for you out there as an actor trying to find roles? Because the things I’ve heard from my other trans actor friends is pretty grim.
NM: Yes. So, I did an interview last year, I think, with The Wrap, and they were asking me specifically about the declining state of trans rep in Hollywood and media, and they were asking me, “well, Nicole, have you… have you personally felt that as a trans actress?” And I’m like, well, I’m definitely getting less auditions. It’s not because I’m… is it because I’m trans? Or is it because…. the state of the industry is such that we have gone through COVID, fire, strike, another strike, like…
SB: The collapse of the streaming industry.
TB: The collapse of streaming, yeah.
NM: …And given the keys to the kingdom over to people who, I think, have demonstrated that they do not have the best interest of the people that actually populate said industry at heart.
TB: Yeah, yeah.
NM: And so, what did we think was gonna happen, you know? Oh, surprise, surprise! Everyone’s losing their jobs! How many artists just got fired at Disney? So, like, you know… and this is true of politics, this is true of so much in the world right now.
TB: Oh yeah.
NM: Like, what did we think was gonna happen? Surprise, surprise! It’s not a game!
TB: Right?
NM: So… the state of the… like, I’ve been doing auditions, but I haven’t been booking. I talked to a friend of mine who’s a very successful actor, and he was like, I haven’t booked in a year and a half. And he’s straight, cis, white, successful man! So it’s all of us, I think.
TB: Yeah.
NM: I think then the, you know, intersectionality comes into it, and I’m sure that the hirability or un-hirability is exacerbated by the feeling of studios and productions not wanting to do a stunt casting, or not wanting to pull a headline, or pull the ire of the administration, or Fox News. And, you know, it’s become such a thing now that I’ve heard writers saying, “oh, I’ve had producers tell me… oh, script’s great, but this gay character needs to be straight, because it’s just not the time.”
TB: We’ve been told directly that we can’t put a trans character in something, that we can’t say the word “trans,” because it’s a bad word, and it’s just so awful.
NM: Completely. We’ve allowed this to become, like, a debated, politicized thing, and… it shouldn’t even be a discussion, it’s just…
TB: Right? Human rights aren’t a debate.
SB: Pizza toppings are a debate.
NM: Completely.
TB: Not people! Yeah. Well, let me ask you, though… on the times that you do see roles come up that maybe are specifically for a trans character, how have those been? Have they been…
NM: Fairly good, it’s been a second.
TB: Really?
NM: It’s been a second since I’ve gotten a role for a trans character. Most of the stuff I go up for is cis characters.
TB: Right.
NM: I don’t see a lot of trans characters, not nearly as much as I used to.
TB: Yeah, in my annual reports on trans rep that I’ve been doing, it’s just been declining and declining every single year, and the number of jokes at our expense has been going up and up and up. Last year, there were more jokes than trans people on screen, and that was so not cool. So it’s…
NM: Especially because they’re not funny. And there’s a way to do it.
TB: It’s not funny! I don’t understand that.
NM: I don’t understand it. Like, being trans is so *bleep*ing funny.
TB: Right.
NM: And it’s so stupid, and there’s so many parts to make fun of. How do you keep missing the iceberg of material to make fun of? I don’t understand it.
TB: There are, like… I’ve seen trans stand-up comedians do some really good trans jokes, and they’re not…
NM: I’ve seen some cis stand-up comedians do really good trans jokes!
TB: They’re rare, but I’ve seen a few.
NM: What was… there was this great one I saw, it was a cis Black man, and he was talking about one of his mates had just transitioned, and was… “his name was Tommy, and he was coming up, and I just knew he was gonna say Tammy, and I just knew, and he comes up, and he goes, ‘I wanna be Lavender.’ He goes… Tammy? I don’t know how I feel about calling a white woman the color purple.” And that was a long setup, but I like the payoff for that. And I was like, that’s how you do it! That’s something I like! I like the color purple, that’s *bleep*ing funny. Because we do be choosing some shit like “Lavender.”
TB: We do!
SB: Yes, it’s true.
NM: One thing about us, if we can sound like someone’s great aunt… we’ll take it.
TB: Yes, yes, there’s a trend, let’s say. Okay, for you, what has been the best thing about transitioning?
NM: I like looking in the mirror.
TB: Oh, isn’t it amazing?
NM: It’s fun. I love it when I’m having a good hair day, good outfit day, good makeup day, and I…
TB: Yeah.
NM: And the planets align, and all the pieces come together. I’m like, “I can’t believe people didn’t want this to happen.”
TB: Yeah!
NM: “I can’t believe there was anyone who voted nay on this.” Could you imagine?
TB: I could not, no.
NM: Look at the material!
TB: That was a thing too, for me, that I always, like, hoped one day I wouldn’t hate what I saw in the mirror, but I never knew if I would get there, you know? And when I did, it was just this most mind-blowing thing to me.
NM: Completely.
TB: Yeah, it’s wild. Okay, so, on the other side of that coin, what has been the worst or maybe most difficult part for you?
NM: This is something that I run into… consistently, is the struggle to get refills on some of my prescriptions. Or like, especially if I’m seeing a new doctor, and I understand how important working with your doctors, and getting blood work done, and everything like that. So many times, I’ve tried to go get my refill prescriptions, they’re like “well, we’d really love for you to come in, and so maybe we could get some labs done.” I’m like, shut the *bleep* up, I’ve been taking this medication for so- give me the *bleep*ing ‘mones, I’m not coming in because I know my *bleep*ing primary… I’m so sorry. How many times have I done this already?
TB: I’m not counting, but it’s been a few. It’s okay, though! It’s all right.
NM: Should we start over?
TB: No, we’re fine.
NM: I’m so sorry.
TB: It’s cool. It’s totally cool. No problems.
NM: Oh my gosh, this is why… this is why we don’t have rights. Because we can’t listen. We can’t listen, we can’t follow basic instructions.
TB: No, it’s fine!
NM: I’m so sorry. I’m just like, give me my- give me my meds. I’ll let you know if something’s going on. It’s really frustrating.
TB: It’s rough. But, like, with my endocrinologists, I have had a string of really rough experiences where they’re… like, the first one I had was working on 30 year-old info and refused to update…
NM: Yeah.
TB: Or change his mind about anything I sent him. It was… it’s just… it’s such a fight, and like, I know some trans friends have trans endocrinologists, and I’m just like, “what must that heaven be like?”
NM: Oh my gosh. Well, even for my second surgery, for my revision surgery, going to a trans surgeon… I was like… Oh. Oh! Luxurious.
TB Yeah, right…
NM: Wow!
TB: Who knew it could be so nice?
NM: I know! Well, for me too, my primary care doctor is never in the office. And I don’t… it’s not been nearly as collaborative as it was when I was growing up. And when I was a kid, I felt like there was a lot of working together, and now it feels very, just kinda… “set it and forget it.” And I’m- I don’t feel that I really have anyone to talk to if I’m like, “hey, can I try something new, or can I pursue this other medication that I’ve heard things…” I’m on Reddit. First thing about me, I’m on Reddit. I’m in the trans tag, I’m like, “so what’s…”
SB: There’s a lot of stuff on Reddit
TB: A lot of stuff. Yeah.
NM: Well, yeah, I’ve been on the progesterone kick recently. That’s been my journey, I’ve been trying to navigate that.
TB: Yeah. That’s another one, like, my doctor keeps trying to keep me on, like, really low doses of it, even though it’s so safe, and it works so well. They’re like, “well, it’s anecdotal.” I’m like, “everything’s anecdotal, because you don’t do studies on us!”
NM: Completely… oh, wake that up. Please, can we talk about… you don’t do studies on us! You don’t know! We know! Because we’ve been talking! I was telling my cis boyfriend about the difference, and they were like, “well, is that safe? You know, the doctors usually, you know… they prescribe a certain amount.” I’m like, let me tell you first thing, they don’t know what they’re talking about.
TB: They don’t know.
NM: Forget it.
TB: No, no idea.
NM: I can’t tell you the last time I saw my primary care. It’s been years. Every time I go in, they’re like, “hey, we have this other guy who’s in the office, your guy’s out, do you want us…” and I was like, “Sure! What are we doing?”
TB: Right.
NM: Every time I’m in there, I’m seeing someone new. No consistency.
TB: No, it’s terrible.
NM: Give me my meds, and don’t talk to me. Actually, don’t look at me.
TB: So say we all. It’s perfect. Just give us our meds and leave us alone.
NM: Completely.
TB: All right. Well, let’s get into talking about Dreamer, which is what we’re here to do in this episode.
NM: Okay!
TB: I was delightfully surprised, and kind of floored, when she first appeared on the Supergirl show, because a trans woman superhero on screen was not something I ever thought I would see. And you know, she wasn’t a victim of violence, or a trickster, or a sex criminal. She avoided all the terrible tropes.
NM: Completely.
TB: I think I’ve said this to you when we first met on an SDCC panel a few years ago, but, like, it meant so much to me to see you playing her every week, and this, like, good representation of what trans women can be.
NM: And then there was, like, this cute, nerdy boy who thought she was hot? And he was like, “oh, trans? No problem. Hit it.”
TB: No Problem. I was way into her and Brainy. They were… they were great.
NM: I… had problems with some of it, because it felt a lot of the time that both of us… and I think partially for Brainiac being an autistic-coded character, I think both of us fell into the, like, kind of infantilized character. And we became, like, “the kids” of the show. I was like, these are both… grown adults.
TB: Yeah.
NM: There should be no reason why we’re, like, holding hands.
SB: That’s fair.
NM: This is a hot green man. Can I kiss him? Like an adult would? There’s a significant increase in the sixth season after we found out we weren’t… it was like, “hey, we weren’t going on to [season] seven.” I walked in and I said, “okay, so the pussy bows and the little buttoned-up Mayflower looks… the girls are gonna be featured players.” Paid actors, each one, and there’s a significant increase in the amount of Dreamer cleavage in the last season of the show.
TB: That’s amazing.
NM: Because I was like, everyone else gets to be hot and sexy and grown up, why do I have to be, like, the innocent, pure- like, no! She’s worked so hard for these breasts!
TB: Right?
NM: I wanna put them on TV!
TB: Relatable. I wonder if part of that was their fear of not wanting to over-sexualize a trans woman?
NM: Yes.
TB: It happens so much, but you can go too far in the other direction, and we don’t feel real.
NM: Yeah! There… people get so self-conscious about our sexuality,
TB: They sure do.
NM: People get so self-conscious. I was talking to Abigail Thorne about this recently, another trans actress, and she was saying… that it’s… They’re too afraid to… I just totally lost my train of thought. I’m so sorry. What were we just talking about?
SB: That’s okay.
NM: We were talking about paid actresses, they’re afraid of our sexuality, they infantilize us. She said something really good, and it just… it was… I thought about it, and it just… Dang. Being trans is a curse.
TB: That’s the pull quote from this episode!
NM: Turns out, if it’s a mental illness, I got it. It was so… it was so good. She was saying… we were talking… because I was telling her about it. Whatever, it doesn’t matter. The point is, they get so self-conscious about- oh, that’s what it was! We don’t want anyone to- my mind is a labyrinth. Thank God I can’t have children. I would never impart this on another living soul! This is a nightmare. But we don’t want, like, anyone watching the show at home, you know, casual 8 pm on a Sunday, to be like, “Wait. I feel something about this trans character. What’s happening to me? I mean? Am I something? Does that mean that I’m gay? I can’t be that because of the church!” Like…
TB: Yeah. Yeah, it’s terrible. How much input did you have? Like, so, like, you got things changed a little bit, like, on season six, and I… am I correct that there weren’t any trans writers on staff?
NM: They cared. I mean, it only really came up, like, once a season, let’s be honest. There was always, like, the one… the trans episode, and I was like, okay, we’ll… we’ll call Roxy Wood, the roommate, we’ll bring her in, and we’ll, like, you know, we’ll have a trans episode.
TB: Yeah.
NM: Which was always good, because I wanted to see Roxy, and we love to hang out. But they would, like, you know… they’d call Nick Adams at GLAAD, and, you know, we’d run through every… you know, they’d try to fill the room with other people who could proofread, and then they’d always ask me, “hey, Nicole, what do you think? Can I kind of, you know…” Should I have been paid as a writer? Who knows? But, they were really… you know, I could tell they cared. And they gave a crap. Which was, you know, nice to see.
TB: That’s a step up from a lot of cis writers.
NM: But… yeah, but I think specifically in season five, we had this big episode where, Nia, or Dreamer, was confronted by, a transphobe who- exactly what we were just talking about.
TB: Yeah, yeah.
NM: The hot new superhero! He found out she was trans and, like, had a trans panic moment. And that was, for a lot of reasons, a really good episode. And we made sure, like, the statistics that we were- it was a little “after-school special,” but, you know, we’re… what’s that meme where it’s, like, talking to trans people about gender, and it’s, like, Socrates, and then it’s, like, talking to cis people about gender, and it’s, like, playing with blocks.
TB: Yeah.
NM: So I was, like, it was a little “after-school special,” but I was like, okay, I get it. You know, we’re not gonna go back to Compton’s and, you know… all this stuff, which I wish we had. But we had, like, exact statistics to the date of filming about, like, the mortality rate, and whatnot, you know, it was… what it’s actually like to be a trans person.
TB: Yeah.
NM: And… and calling out, like, “no, Supergirl, the police are not going to investigate the assault of a Black trans woman.” Like…
TB: Sure aren’t, yeah.
NM: I wish, though, that that episode had, first of all, not been B-story, because it was promoted as kind of the story, and then it was the secondary-
TB: Yeah.
NM: -storyline of that episode. I think it was important enough, and interesting enough, and compelling enough, that that should have been the main story. And I frankly think it should have been the only story of that episode, if I could go back…
TB: You never see that. You never see a-
NM: Never see that.
TB: -show like that, no.
NM: That should have been, like, a full 40 minutes of Dreamer going Rambo.
TB: Woo, we love to see it.
NM: And that’s what Suicide Squad was. That was me, I was like, “this is what I wish we had done. I wish she was pulling people into the shadows.” I… and I stand by it, I think she should have. I think with the storyline with season… the overarch of season five, of kind of doing the, like, “oh, Lena Luthor’s going bad, and why are all Supergirl’s friends turning?” I think Dreamer should’ve… killed ’em. I think she should have… she was well within her rights, to have been, like, “Oh, no, I’m not going to leave this clear psychopath to the US justice system Supergirl, I’m gonna have my little vigilante moment, and have a valid crash-out.” Because at that point, she’d also deserved it. How many times had Brainiac broken up with her by that point? She deserved to snap somebody’s neck if it wasn’t gonna be his.
TB: That works.
NM: Poor girl.
TB: A little… a little adult for Supergirl‘s tone, but it would have been great.
NM: You know, and that’s the note I kept getting back. They’re like, “Nicole, why do you keep coming to set with gallons of fake blood?” I’m like,” “just to have. Like, it’s an option!”
TB: No reason!
SB: Just in case!
TB: You never know when you’re gonna need it.
NM: Completely. Look, I’m a genre girly.
TB: Same. Okay, so, well, here’s something, kind of wild that you might not know, but we have a friend who was writing some DC books years ago, and this was before Bad Dream had ever been announced. And I had mentioned to him that I would kill to write for Dreamer and maybe bring her into the comics, and he actually sent out some feelers and tried to check with the editors. And that’s when I first heard back, “something’s already going on with her.” I didn’t hear that you were involved, but that “somebody” was already doing something, and then Bad Dream was announced.
NM: I am… so happy to hear that there was interest from somebody besides myself. That makes me so happy!
TB: I tried!
NM: I need you to write Dreamer at some point. I see so many-
TB: I would love that.
NM: I see so many… like, stuff on Reddit where folks are like, “God, Dreamer needs a new writer. She’s just… Nicole needs to do something else, they need to separate them.” And I’m like: “Sure.” I’m like, “sure, man, there’s not a queue behind me! I know that if I stopped doing this thing, it stops moving! I’m more than happy to take a break for a second, and let someone else take a shot. Please!”
TB: When you are ready, give me a call. I am so there.
NM: Listen!
TB: Let me ask about that, then, because it is so rare that a character appears… that first appears in DC stuff outside of the comics actually makes it into the comics. And Dreamer did, which was so exciting, you know, but how did that happen? How did that leap into comic… were you involved with that from the start? Did they come to you? How did that go?
NM: That was my pitch. I set up the meeting with them,
TB: Okay.
NM: And I was like- and this is to illustrate how much I knew about comics going into this, I asked for an ongoing. And I was like, hey…
TB: Bold!
NM: Right? I was like, yeah! Just give me a… give it to me! I didn’t want to write it, either, is the thing. I went in with, like, a pitch for a story and, like, a loose proof of concept. I was like, “you guys are the comic book people, you’ll find someone to write this.”
TB: Yeah.
NM: “You guys, you guys got the contacts. I just think, like, this is what you should do with this character, she’s important, she means a lot to a lot of people, and I think it would be a waste for her to end with the show.”
TB: Yeah.
NM: And they were like, “well… An ongoing’s a big ask.” Oh, is it? I don’t know. And they said that they had their young adult graphic novel line really popping off, and they wanted more stuff for that, and they wanted a story about sisters. And I said, “well, Nia has one of those. Famously, an awful one.” And then… so that’s how that started. And then that grew, and Sarah Miller, who was my editor on Bad Dream, came in, and she was like, “hey, we also wanted to do a crossover with this other graphic novel we just had come out with another trans superhero, Galaxy.” And so they sent me that. Well… they sent me the first ninety-nine pages of Galaxy, so I started planning to that and writing that. And then I had to change my whole… back half of my plot, when they sent me the second half of Galaxy’s book, and she, like, on page one hundred, breaks the little space rock avocado, and she can’t shapeshift anymore. And that, like, was very-
TB: They could’ve told you!
NM: -heavily featured in my story. I was like, cool cool cool cool, okay. So I went from having a really nicely structured outline to, like, the last half of that book was improv. I was like, “whoa, I don’t know what’s going on.”
TB: No, when reading it, it looks like it’s perfectly planned and plotted all the way through.
NM: Thank god.
SB: (laughs)
NM: Not the case!
TB: You made it work, though.
NM: Hey, you know what? First draft’s only job is to exist.
TB: That’s right!
NM: And a final drafts only job is to- um, oh, shit, it was due yesterday!
TB: So it was editorial, then, that brought you and Jadzia together? Because we had her on the show just a few episodes back to talk about Galaxy, so I was wondering how that- because I love the relationship between the two of them in the comics, between Dreamer and Galaxy.
NM: It’s so great.
TB: It’s so great!
NM: It’s so amazing to see two… they are so similar in so many ways that you’re like, “oh, a trans alien superhero? Why do we need two of those?” Well, because one…
TB: Their personalities are so different.
NM: They exist on opposite ends of this superhero spectrum-
TB: Yeah.
NM: -and isn’t it so cool to watch the way that they specifically are still so… dedicated to each other, but have reached such… or maybe not reached, but been pushed to such polar opposite ends of this experience?
TB: Yeah. Yeah. We can have two.
NM: We should!
TB: That way one character doesn’t have to represent all of us, you know? That’s always the problem when you’re lucky enough if you get one, and it’s like…, that character kind of has to mean everything to everyone.
NM: It kind of has to mean everything to everyone.
TB: Yeah.
NM: And it’s so nice that we have variety, because, I mean, this is… I think this speaks to such a huge problem when we’re having a discussion about trans people, trans experiences, trans identities. We talk about it like it is this one universal thing, and it is not.
TB: No.
NM: Everybody’s body is different, everybody’s wants and desires, everybody’s transition goals are different.
TB: Yeah!
NM: But we talk about it in this way where I think sports is the perfect example. We talk about it like somebody who’s transitioned at one point versus somebody who’s transitioned at another point are the same, and we’re ignoring those same exact differences amongst cisgender people!
TB: Yep.
NM: And so we pretend… like, we’re completely ignoring the lived reality of everybody on Earth by pretending we all must… identify or correspond with one thing.
TB: Yeah, or that we all want the same things, or in the same way. We’re not a monolith, we’re all so different.
NM: No! And nobody is!
TB: Right, exactly! That’s, like, one of my favorite things about this [podcast], is having all these different trans people on, and asking people what’s good about it for you? What’s been bad about it for you? What’s been hard for you? We’re all so different, and it gives such a, I think, really beautiful picture of what the trans experience is like. Because there’s no one trans experience.
NM: And isn’t it interesting that all of our “bad thing” is the airport? That’s the only universal. Hate it.
TB: That and transphobia.
NM: Well…
SB: It feels very Hollywood to be like, “there’s only one kind.”
TB: Oh, sure, Hollywood tokenizes every marginalized community.
NM: Well, that’s the other thing. It was actually amazing. I went out to coffee with Abigail recently, and she had just come over to LA from the UK, and she was like [puts on English accent], “Girl, I know what things are like here, but I just want you to know… it is so much worse. Or it could be so much worse. There is one role for the trans girls, and we’re all fighting for it, and we all have to step over each other’s dead body to get it.”
TB: Yeah.
NM: The fact that, like, we here actually have a community, and people who are happy for one another, and support one another, and try to help one another? Is insane. And I was like, “oh, yeah!” Because it was just something I think maybe we take for granted, our sense of community and our- but it’s… it’s nice, it’s… and I think that’s the thing that I love about Galaxy and Dreamer too, is getting to see the… the way that they show up for each other in the comics, because I do think it’s really special.
TB: It really is. And it, you know, it’s another thing that we don’t get hardly any of. So it’s really this, like, unique unicorn, to get to see it, and it’s…
NM: Well, God forbid there be two trans people on the same show.
TB: Not that!
NM: And they’re not gonna be in the same scene. That’s just unrealistic. That’s just… What!? Why would there be more than one? That’s not-
TB: We don’t all know each other or anything.
NM: No! That’s completely the thing. It’s like, “Oh, Dreamer and Galaxy? How dare you assume they know each other? Obviously, they’ve been best friends for years, but it’s- it’s so transphobic to assume!”
TB: Right?
NM: I was like, oh my god, so… so unrealistic that there’s more than one gay person in a show.
TB: Yeah.
NM: When I was in college, I was in a, like, suite with all… I wouldn’t see a straight person for days.
TB: The dream!
NM: We’re not complaining! We had one girl in our suite who was a med student, so she was always locked in her room studying, who was such a sweet Jane, straight cis girl. She’d come out and we’d go… “Don’t scare us like that, oh my gosh! We were in gay sanctuary, we didn’t know, we weren’t prepared.”
TB: Okay, so Dream Girls is coming up, and it sort of spins off, I guess, directly from Justice League Intergalactic, right? So how did this project come about that stars the two of them? Like, was it a natural progression? Is it something you or Jadzia pitched? How did that go?
NM: As is true of everything good in comics, this really is, I think, a result of Andrea Shea. And she…
TB: Oh, I love her, she’s so great.
NM: She really wanted to do some Pride stuff, and Jadzia and I wanted to work together forever anyway, and wanted to bring Dreamer and Galaxy into the fold. And I think… I’m trying to, like, I’m trying to think if Dream Girls or Justice League came first. They kind of came about at the same time. I know Paul was really great in- Paul Kaminski was really great in securing us a story for Justice League Unlimited, and doing one of the quarterlies. That was really fantastic. And I think through that, it kind of grew. We knew we had the name. We had Dream Girls.
TB: It’s such a good name.
NM: We knew that’s what we wanted the name to be. And we were like, “whatever this turns into is gonna be great.” And I think it kind of just grew and grew and grew until… it became the Pride special, because Andrea’s, you know… Andrea’s been wanting to, like, up Pride for a minute.
TB: Yeah.
NM: And her whole goal, for those of you who don’t know, Andrea Shea is a brilliant editor at DC Comics. And she’s in charge of all of the DC Pride initiatives, and she’s fantastic. And you should absolutely tell her that, because it is… she hates it. She can’t stand a compliment, she can’t stand to be made the center of attention. Please, she’ll melt into a puddle.
TB: I will tell her the next time I see her. Definitely. And say Nicole said I should tell you how amazing you are.
NM: And all the listeners should do it, too. All the listeners should go on Bluesky and blow her up.
TB: She’s a wonderful person, too.
NM: Ugh, she really is. She… her whole goal has been, like, “I don’t want to sequester queer characters to just the month of June. I want DC’s queer community to feel present throughout the year.” Because we’re not just gay in June. Who knew?
TB: Exactly.
NM: We only remember in June, But we are subconsciously queer the rest of the year.
TB: Yes.
NM: And… and so that was how that kind of came about, and then the fact that they… I know they… last year’s Pride Anthology was the first one that, like, had a through storyline, kind of. We were still doing these little different anthologies and bits. And so this is kind of the next step in that, is a proper rooted in canon story, that we’ve still managed to get that kind of anthology feel, because we have so many different queer artists coming in and doing these little vignettes, as Dreamer and Galaxy pop from one dream to the next. Each one is a new, DC Justice League character kind of origin story, and it’s in the style of kind of… that feels kind of quintessentially that. So we go to Themyscira…
TB: That’s really cool.
NM: And we have Nicola Scott do just… beautiful Themysciran, Amazonian art that was featured at the end of Justice League Intergalactic.
TB: Yeah.
NM: And then, after that, we… I don’t know how much I can spoil, but after that, we kind of do, like, a fun… we go to Gotham, and we’re kind of doing a little bit like a Batman animated series kind of feel. We do… we go… I don’t know how much… I don’t know how much is… this is June. This comes out May…
TB: This’ll come out the last Tuesday of May, so, like a week before Dream Girls starts.
NM: Okay, I, I don’t know how much I can-
TB: Yeah, I don’t want to get you in trouble.
NM: No, I don’t want to get me in trouble either, but I do want listeners to… we have so many cute… there’s one where they’re, like, Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, and then there’s another where they’re like, I’m really excited for Batlash and Jonah Hex. It looks so good. It’s…
TB: It’s such a great idea. Like, I don’t even know the story behind it, but just that concept alone is such a fun thing that you could do, like, in comics, that doesn’t work so much in other mediums, and I love that.
NM: Yeah, completely. It’s… and with all the different artists, too. And then we have Ro and Ted kind of doing our main line.
TB: Yeah, yeah.
NM: Kind of, like, in the waking world on board the Watchtower, when we kind of cut back to that. And we see the Justice League spinning out over, “okay, well, what do we do with these two unconscious… trans women… and also… we don’t super know if one of them should be in jail or not. Like, are we bad people if she wakes up in jail?”
TB: But she wouldn’t be in jail for being trans. That’s the important part.
NM: And that is… it’s because she is utterly incapable at her job, and everything she touches turns to ash. And she’s stupid and bad in the head.
TB: I love that we can have-
NM: And her brain is sick.
TB: -complicated trans women like that. it’s wonderful. The joy.
NM: I mean, this is the thing. Yes, I’m mentally ill, but I’m trans and mentally ill. I’m not mentally ill because I’m trans.
TB: There you go, that’s a perfect delineation to make, yes.
NM: I’m always here to help.
TB: So… writing comics, at least for us, is kind of a slow process. It’s not the fastest medium to write for, I think, and I know acting also takes a lot of work-
NM: Oh, totally.
TB: So do you struggle to find time to do both?
NM: I’m… I mean, I’m an out of work actor, so no.
TB: Okay. That’s a sad answer, but…
NM: I know. I mean, I’ve done… I’ve done both. I was working on the graphic novel… there was a point where I was doing… Bad Dream, I was finishing up Lazarus Planet… was it Lazarus Planet? No, it was Bad Dream, Action Comics, and Beast World at the same time.
TB: That’s a lot.
NM: And I was doing Yellowjackets at the same time, so I was, like, on set with my iPad writing comic books. And then I was like, “no, Juliette Lewis, don’t stab me in the face!” And then, like, came back and, like, got back into comics. But it was really- it was really, Simone Kessel was very impressed.
TB: Can I say, actually, you just reminded me that in that episode of Yellowjackets, where you got stabbed in the face, I was terrified that, “oh, here’s the death of the trans woman trope,” right?
NM: Totally!
TB: But then you didn’t die, and I was just so happy.
NM: And then I came back and was just so mean.
TB: I know! It’s great.
NM: Just shooting death glares. So fun. I wanted to… I wanted to be on that show forever. That was really, really fun. But I got what I needed. I came back for, like, two episodes… two episodess in season three, and it was kind of just, like, kind of writing me off. It was just so fun, and I got what I needed, too, because all the Yellowjackets lesbians on Twitter were like, “did Lisa get hotter?” I was like, “I did! Thank you for noticing! It’s cause I have nails on and I’m chain-smoking. Because I look like a rock star.” I said, “oh, two scenes? I’m keeping my nails on, thank you.”
TB: Any time the lesbians get excited, I’m very happy, so… yeah.
NM: It feels… it feels… it feels extra affirming, doesn’t it?
TB: Yeah, it really does.
NM: Like, from men, whatever. Like, ugh. We know there’s no standard, but from lesbians? Like, wow. Thank you.
TB: Exactly.
NM: Thank you. That keeps me going.
TB: Okay, so Dream Girls releases one issue per week through June.
NM: Yes.
TB: What’s next for you and Dreamer after that? Are there other things that you’re working on? Like, you probably can’t say, but is there more to come?
NM: Not yet.
TB: Oh, no!
NM: That’s the thing. I ju- I texted a really cute… is this going to be audio only?
TB: Yes.
NM: So I can show you guys something. Listeners will just have to listen to you see it.
TB: Okay!
NM: I… no, I’m actually gonna pull it up on my iPad.
TB: Sorry to the listeners, you should have been on this call.
NM: I’m… So, so… oh… this is so cute. I was sending this to Paul. This is from Dream Girls 3.
TB: Ahhh!
NM: No. Dream Girls… yeah, 3.
TB: Little kissy kiss! I probably shouldn’t say that, I’ll have to edit it now.
NM: Yeah, but we don’t know who it is.
TB: That’s true!
NM: So I sent… So I sent that to Paul Kaminski. And he was like, “well, your ears must be ringing, because I had an idea that I wanted to run by you…”
TB: Mmm.
NM: “But I need to work out some stuff first.” so I’m eagerly awaiting my next phone call with Paul. Because he and I always get up into trouble, and we always have fun. I love Paul!
TB: Yeah, we just had a call with him not that long ago, he was really great!
NM: He’s just… so incredible, I love him. And I love… he was the one who pitched Secret Six to me at Comic-Con. And he came up and he was like, he was like, “hey, hey, I was talking to Mark Waid, and we had an idea. We think you should write Secret Six.” And then that’s-
TB: That’s amazing!
NM: -how that started. I was like… “Okay! Sure!” And of course, I-
TB: “No, no Paul Kaminski and Mark Waid, no thank you. I don’t want that job.”
NM: No. Not even! I don’t want you to hand me Gail Simone’s lightning in a bottle, don’t touch it, it’s a fragile, perfect thing. Ugh.
TB: No pressure.
NM: No pressure.
TB: Okay, well, I need to… unfortunately, make it a little weird for a second.
NM: Okay…
TB: Because despite all of the signings and panels that we have done together, and the SDCC DC Comics parties that we have hung out at, there is something that I haven’t had the guts to tell you, but I’m-
NM: Oh my god.
TB: -going to do it now, because it is important to let people know the impact they had on you.
NM: Oh, God.
TB: So there are a handful of trans women, writers and artists who were really, really important to my own journey, and believing that I could do it too. That I could transition and still have a writing career. And they were like lighthouses as I weathered the storm and found my way to shore, and I thanked them when I came out publicly, and I thanked them in the back of my Matrix book, and I’ve thanked them when they’ve come on this show. And you are one of those few, so-
NM: Thank youuuu!
TB: Thank you for being so visible, and showing me that I could be myself and have a creative career, and for all that you’ve done for the community. It means so much.
NM: We are so happy and thankful and better to have you.
TB: Awwwwwwwwww…
NM: We are so happy you’re here. We’re so happy to have you aboard.
TB: Well, it’s my favorite team I’ve ever been on.
NM: Ugh, I have been trying to get, like, a proper DC Pride panel at Comic-Con. I want it to be, like, you, me, Andrea, Jadzia, like… I want to get everyone up there and, like, just have a gay old time. I think we deserve it.
TB: We do.
NM: I feel like DC Pride is popped off enough that we could get us all up there.
SB: Yeah.
TB: We haven’t been in DC Pride yet, but… we do have maybe something with them…
NM: But, like, DC… but, like, DC Pride, like… as a concept.
TB: As a con- okay, yeah, sure, then absolutely yes!
NM: That is the actual anthology, just like…
TB: You’re right.
NM: We are comic voices that are happy to be here.
TB: Yes!
NM: We- we just wanted to be on a panel and kiki.
TB: We do! Looking all cute and hot in front of people, it’s great.
NM: And you know that panel’s gonna be sold out, the T-turnt panel.
TB: T-turnt! Oh-
NM: I love those. I love those. I have those on under my jeans.
TB: That’s amazing! For folks that don’t know, there was a little back and forth Nicole and I had on Bluesky a couple months back. And it ended up in Nicole saying that at WonderCon, we were going to get T-turnt. And I said that should be our new slogan, and she said it should be in sparkly letters on booty shorts. And so I got those made and gave them to her.
NM: I love them, and they make my butt look amazing. Thank you.
TB: Oh, that’s so good!
NM: I be getting T-turnt all the time with them.
TB: Well, is there any better note to wrap up this episode on? I don’t think so. Thank you for being here, Nicole!
NM: Thank you for having me!
TB: Dream Girls premieres June 3 from DC Comics, and releases a new issue every Wednesday this June. It is the first time two trans women characters, written by two incredibly talented trans women, have headlined a book like this. Get it to show DC, and all of comics, that there is a demand for it. And get it because you want an amazing sci-fi superhero story in your life. For this trans woman mega DC fan, it is a dream…. come true. Tilly Bridges-
NM: Oh my god, how did you do that?
TB: -I’m a writer! End transmission.