Welcome to #TransTuesday! Today we have an interview with the speech pathologist who helped change my life! We’re gonna talk all about trans voices and how to safely work on changing them! So let’s get into TRANS VOICES 3: SCIENCE AND TIPS.
This interview contains some of the science behind gender-affirming speech therapy, as well as discussion of sounds our voices make and how to manipulate them. Those are hard to explain in a transcript, so I highly recommend listening to the podcast version to get the most out of this.
What follows is a transcript of the interview!
Tilly: Hi! I’m Tilly Bridges, your host, and I’m joined by my writing partner, my best friend, my wife, our token cis representation, my partner in all things, because I keep dragging her along with me, Susan Bridges.
Susan: Hello!
Tilly: Hi! Our guest this week is Jein Yi, M.S., CCC-SLP (it sounds so fancy!), a Speech-Language Pathologist specializing in voice and swallowing disorders, with a particular passion for gender affirming voice training. Jein received her bachelor’s degree from the University of California San Diego, and her master’s degree in speech language pathology from Boston University. She holds a Certificate of Clinical Competence from the American Speech-Language Hearing Association and a license from the state of California.
AND she has the honor of being our first cisgender guest ever welcome, Jein! Hi!
Jein Yi: Thanks for having me!
Tilly: It’s so great to talk to you again. Because we spoke to each other for an hour every few weeks for 2 years. And honestly, that’s more than I get to speak to most of my friends sometimes. So I actually miss our little chats, you know, and you correcting me every time my voice slipped.
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: (laughs) I miss our conversations, too. I… you know people don’t talk about it, but I feel like that’s definitely a thing. I think that’s a thing other speech pathologists probably go through too, where we think about our past clients and the conversations we’ve had. And you know, our clients touch our lives, too. And I don’t think that’s talked about enough either. So.
Tilly: yeah, because, you know, when we’re especially trying to get to using all of the techniques in conversation, we’re just talking. And so you’re asking me all these questions about what’s going on in my life, and you know, how was your Christmas, what are you and your wife up to with your writing careers? And so it was always just like it, was this personal discussion, you know? We talked about your vacation when you saw the turtles. It was so great. So
Jein Yi: (laughs) yeah, I’ve actually always been… kind of yeah, I’ve always asked you about your writing work. And-
Tilly: yeah.
Jein Yi: I’m just… I want to watch all those TV shows that, you know, that you’ve written, so…
Tilly: Hopefully!
Jein Yi: I’m so looking forward to – yeah.
Susan: But it’s funny though, because like… you know, in voice training…
Tilly: Yeah.
Susan: Like… speaking about things, it’s like thinking and talking. It’s like chewing gum and walking at the same time.
Tilly: That’s the hardest part.
Susan: So-
Tilly: Yeah.
Susan: It’s like an opportunity for you to mess up.
Tilly: Right, right.
Susan: Because you’re just thinking about-
Tilly: And she would always let me know when I did.
Susan: (laughs)
Tilly: It was very helpful.
Jein Yi: Very subtly!
Tilly: Yes, yes. Okay. So before we get any further, where can people find more about you online afterward if they would like more
Jein Yi: I have a private clinic, and I have an Instagram account that I’m working on with a few other colleagues, a couple of other colleagues, that has a little bit of information about trans voice training, gender forming voice training, and that is the account where I- once the book, whenever it gets published-
Tilly: Yeah yeah!
Jein Yi: -is where we’re planning to put it so I don’t know which one I should-
Tilly: I think- I think the Instagram is probably good, and people can just follow you there and… yeah.
Jein Yi: Okay, the Instagram handle is @affirmvoice. So A F F I R M V O I C E.
Tilly: Excellent, and yes, you have- you have a book coming out about trans voice training. Right?
Jein Yi: Mmhm, we do.
Tilly: That’s excellent.
Jein Yi: We don’t know which. Which way we’re gonna go with it yet, self publishing or through a publisher, so that’s still something we’re trying to figure out.
Tilly : Well, everyone should go follow you and keep an eye on that, because I think that’s gonna be very helpful. But I hope this episode will be really helpful for people, too. So I wanted to start off by asking how you got into speech pathology.
Jein Yi: You know I originally got into speech pathology thinking I was gonna work with children. I was in college. I was a psychology major. I was like, I’m not gonna be able to do much with this when I graduate, because that was back when we had our recession, (well we’re in another one), but back, when we had our recession. That was 2008, I think.
So I was like, yeah, no psychology degree isn’t gonna get me anywhere. What can I do that I’ll really enjoy? And I remembered in high school one of my friends’ moms was a speech pathologist. She came and spoke with our class, and I remember thinking it was interesting. So I volunteered at a private clinic near school, and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.
It was really amazing to watch these children come in so frustrated, you know, not having a voice, not being able to speak. And they were moving these little- they’re called pecs. They’re moving these little pictures around and communicating, they were having tantrums, and they were using these things to communicate. “Oh, this is what you wanted. Okay.” And you know, you can just see them calm down because they can communicate.
And I saw, like this mom was telling one of the speech pathologists at the clinic, you know, “For the first time my kid communicated with me. He told me he wanted to go to McDonald’s. We were driving by McDonald’s, and he communicated that with me. And I could not-” She’s like, “I was so excited that he communicated something to me. I pulled right in. I, you know, I got him McDonald’s. And now every time we go by a McDonald’s he communicates that, and I don’t know what to do.” (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: But to me that was just so amazing, you know, giving- giving these, not even just the children, but the whole family, a way to communicate. You know they- just the amount it changes a person’s life. I just thought that was just so wonderful, so beautiful. So that’s how I got into speech pathology.
Tilly: That’s really cool that- that you’re able to do stuff like that for people, because you know, I’ve said multiple times on the show, and to you, that your help changed my life. But stuff like that is even bigger because it- you’re helping people in such an important way. So that’s- it’s really beautiful what you do. So I just want you to know that.
Jein Yi: Thank you.
Tilly: So what made you, after getting into speech pathology, what made you want to focus on gender affirming voice training?
Jein Yi: The hospital I work for…
Tilly: Yeah?
Yeah. They just told us one day. They announced to us, “We are going to start providing services for the transgender population.”
Tilly: Okay.
Jein Yi: “Speech therapy is going to be one of them. Have fun.” (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Tilly: Oh my gosh.
Susan: They’re just like, “Good luck with that.”
Jein Yi: Yeah, they’re like, “You’re a speech pathologist. You got- you know, you have your license. You should be able to figure it out,” sort of thing.
Susan: Wow. (laughs)
Jein Yi: Yeah, it was- and they gave us, like, a one day sensitivity training and that was it.
Tilly: Wow.
Jein Yi: And so, of course, me being the person that I am, you know I can’t just provide not-great care, right? Like I’m like, “No, I need to do better.” And so I did a lot of my own research. But truly, and I was always- you know, I was happy to help, right? I was always happy to help, because as I said, I was a psychology major. And one of the courses was called “human sexuality.” And there was a panel in that class where they got people, all sorts of different people from the LGBT community, and they kind of had a Q and A session, I guess, is what it was.
Tilly: Sure.
Jein Yi: They were telling their story, and the people from the class could ask them questions. And I just remember being so moved by the- by what they were saying, you know. Again, I’ve never had any issues, you know? I’ve always- always was like, “They’re all people,” you know, whatever. Like, you know, we’re all we’re all the same humans, like, what does it matter?
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: But listening to their stories really moved me. So it was- you know, I’ve always been a supporter of LGBT rights and all of that. But yeah, once I was given the opportunity, I was like, okay, like, let’s do this. I’m going to do this properly.
So yeah, I did a lot of my own research, and then my first client, my first trans client… she was amazing. She was the best first client I could have ever asked for.
Tilly: Aww.
Jein Yi: I- I was very honest with her, and I told her, “Hey, this is my first time. Like I have never had any other experience with gender-affirming training. If you still want to work with me, I will try my best.”
And she was like, “Sure!” And she had done so much of her own research, she brought in so much. She gave me a lot of resources that I could check out on my own. She was the one that actually turned me onto Reddit, so that I could go through a lot of Reddit forums and see what the trans population- the trans community was, you know, was having access to, what they were thinking, you know. So that was really helpful.
And she brought in a lot of YouTube videos like, “Jein, what do you think about this? What do you think about this?” I was able to give her my kind of clinical point of view of, like, “I’m not sure this is a great idea, this I really like.”
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: And we’re able to put that together and do something for her. She ended up being happy with her voice, you know, so I’m glad. Now I feel like I know so much more than back then, and I wish I could contact her again and be like,”Hi, you know, I- I know a lot more now!”
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: But she’s happy with her voice, right? So that’s what matters.
Tilly: That’s what matters.
Jein Yi: Yeah, that’s all that matters. So I’m not gonna reach out for all of a sudden, you know, it’s- just as long as she’s happy I’m happy, so.
Tilly: That’s great. Okay, so I was wondering if you could get a little bit into the science of why the voices of people assigned male at birth, and people assigned female at birth differ. ‘cause I’ve talked about it a little bit in past episodes, but I am not an expert. So I was hoping that you could give, you know, people listening, a little bit of that- that information about why they’re different.
Jein Yi: Okay, so before puberty…
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: …there actually is not that big of a difference in the pitch range. It’s very similar. I’ve- I’ve looked up research and the range, like, they don’t even have a lot of research on it, because there really is not that much of a difference in the pitch range.
Tilly: Right.
Jein Yi: Now when puberty happens, life changes, right, everything changes.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: And so during that time what happens to people who are assigned male at birth is that their vocal tracts- so it starts from the lips all the way down to our vocal cords. I wish I had a little picture to show you. (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: All of that, it gets longer and wider. And then, of course, we also don’t know about the vocal chords kind of increasing in mass essentially… It gets bigger. Everything gets bigger. This is my where my whole cello and violin analogy always comes in. So if we look at a cello and a violin, same shape, or similar shape. But what’s the big difference? Cello is much larger. A violin is smaller. Violin has thinner strings. A cello has thicker strings, right? So you can think of the strings as the vocal chords. And you can think of the size of the actual instrument as your vocal tract.
The cello has a richer, deeper sound because of the thicker strings, and because the sound has a larger space to resonate in.
Tilly: Sure.
Jein Yi: The violin has thinner strings and a smaller space to resonate in, therefore creating a thinner, higher, pitch, a shriller sound. So for people who are assigned male at birth they go the route of the cello, people who are assigned female at birth- it doesn’t actually grow or anything, but you know it grows the normal progression. It doesn’t get especially bigger, especially thicker, or anything like that.
Tilly: Right. That’s fascinating stuff. I love it. It’s- I’m a science nerd, and so I think stuff like that is incredibly cool. And I think that understanding that, like where it’s all coming from, was really helpful to me, I think, just in understanding why my voice sounded the way I did, and- and you know you don’t really need to know that to work on changing your voice, but it definitely helped. It gave me a better sort of, I guess, mental picture? Not picture…”sound?” I don’t know- to shoot for. So anyway, I think that was really helpful.
Susan: So women’s also change, but not as much? Or-
Tilly: Cis women, you mean?
Susan: Yeah, because I’m thinking about, like, a kid’s voice and a woman’s voice, there’s not that much difference.
Tilly: It- I think it deepens a little bit?
Jein Yi: It does, it does deepen a little bit. Yeah, because as cis women get older, our voices do deepen a little bit. There actually- here’s an anecdotal thing, but when I first started working at my hospital and I recorded my voicemail greetings, I listened to that. And then when I switched hospitals a few years ago, it was like 9 years later, I listened to that recording ‘cause I had to reset it, and it sounded so different. It’s like, and then that’s like, (affects higher pitch) “Hi, you’ve reached Jein Yi,” and now it’s like (normal pitch) “Hi, you’ve reached Jein Yi.” you know- it does, it does change a little bit.
Susan: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Tilly: Okay, so hormone replacement therapy doesn’t do anything for a trans woman’s voice. But it can deepen the voices of trans men or non-binary people who also take testosterone. And I was wondering if you get a lot of trans men or non-binary patients, or do you mostly see trans women?
Jein Yi: I also see lots of trans men, lots of non-binary people, yeah. All- everybody in the spectrum.
Tilly: That’s great. Because as one of the things that I learned, you know, going through the sessions with you is that it’s not just about pitch. There’s so much more involved to, you know, trying to use your voice to maybe alleviate dysphoria or get gendered correctly. There- there’s so much, you know, different things that go into it, which we’ll get into in just a minute. But-
Susa: Well I just wanted to say, like, that cello and the violin example. Also i takes more force and effort to play the larger instrument. And I’m thinking the voice is the same way, because, like an assigned male birth, like they talk more forcefully, like more effort.
Tilly: Right. Isn’t it- I think you told me that it’s the people who are assigned male at birth, their vocal folds close all the way, but assigned female at birth don’t. And so that’s why they sound breathier and- and assigned male voices sound a little more forceful.
Jein Yi: Yeah, it’s not 100% of the, you know, people who are assigned male at birth, or you know, it’s, I think, the number,
Susan: (sarcastically) You mean it’s a spectrum?! What?!
Tilly: (laughs)
Jein Yi: (laughs) But yeah, and- and research numbers vary. You know, it’s a range. But I think on average, it’s about like 70 to 80 percent. So yeah, the majority.
Tilly: So what are, or what do you think are, the most common pitfalls or struggles for people who are starting their voice training? Are there, like, similarities and things that people seem to always struggle with more than others?
Jein Yi: I think- I always, you know, start off by telling my clients, I don’t start with pitch. I know everybody wants to focus on pitch first, because that’s- you know, the most… how do I say… it’s most the- most in your face, right? The most obvious thing that you hear when you first start talking. So that’s, I think, for a lot of people like, I get a look (laughs)… until I explain that every other part of voice not only contributes, but also when we work on it, it will also indirect- not indirectly, but it does work on the pitch just that’s our goal. And then people kind of get on board. But that’s one of the one of the things.
Another one… let’s see what’s another common- common, I don’t know, pitfall- I’d say, I don’t know if this counts as a pitfall, but thinking or hoping that it’s, you know, once you go to speech therapy, it’s not something that you’re like- your voice isn’t something you’re gonna have to work on or think about anymore.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: Yeah, that’s something that I always also have to kind of reiterate and emphasize throughout therapy. I feel like, you know, for voice training… I give you the tools. I give you the information. But the important thing, the most important thing, is for you to practice by yourself and to experiment by yourself. I’m really big on “you have to experiment.”
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: Because otherwise everyone’s gonna end up with the same voice, right? That’s not what we’re aiming for. We want you to find what feels most like you, and I can tell you that you know my goal is for you to change your resonance, or whatever. But even within changing the resonance, there’s so much flexibility, right?
Tilly: Yeah!
Jein Yi: So I want- I want my- my clients to find, in that space of changing resonance, what sounds- what to them feels like, “Oh, I like this. And this feels like me,” so.
Tilly: Yeah. Yeah, I think you’re right on, absolutely, with- with the practice, because, you know, I practiced daily for a year after we were done. And it took me all of that time to where almost all of it is second nature now, but I always had to stop and think before I talked for years, you know. Because it- it just doesn’t come that easily. It’s really hard work. And-and I remember when we were going through the different techniques, and I record myself and listen back. And I would be like, “oh, that sounds really good,” or I’d be like, “that sounds- I think I did that right. But I don’t like that as much. Maybe if I pull that back just a little bit, I’ll like it better.” So I think the experimentation is a really important thing, because, yeah, we don’t want everybody to sound the same. You just want to sound like what feels like you. So yeah.
Susan: I figure there’s probably a lot of people, too, who just want it to happen right away.
Tilly: Oh yeah.
Susan: Like, Oh, God, this is gonna take me! How long?
Jein Yi: Yeah.
Susan: So I’m sure that’s really common.
Jein Yi: Yes. It is.
Susan: I guess the depression sets in like, Oh, God! This is a lot of work.
Tilly: It’s so much work.
Susan: And you yelled a lot.
Tilly: I know!
Jein Yi: Aww (laughs).
Susan: She was like, “I don’t wanna practice!” But also I will say, you running role-playing games and having to talk for like 4 h at a time really helped get you…
Tilly: It did help my stamina.
Susan: It did.
Tilly: It was rough, though, for like the first year, because I would get so tired and my voice would sound so terrible.
Susan: And then you’d be all grumpy after they game me like, “I didn’t sound right. It’s so hard.”
Tilly: Yeah, yeah.
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: Yeah, no that’s definitely a thing, too. And sometimes people- it doesn’t happen that frequently, but I have had people stop in the middle of- of voice training and be like, “Hey, I need a break from this for- for my mental health.”
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: And I totally understand. You know, it’s- it’s a process, and it’s a slow process, and it’s something you want so badly. But it’s not something you could rush. So yeah, I get that. It’s- it’s hard. And I feel for my clients, too, because I wish- you know, they asked me, “Jein, Is there anything that you can tell me, anything extra that I could, you know, make it go faster.” I’m like, I wish! I wish I could. I wish I knew. You know I’m always trying. I’m always adapting what I’m doing. I’m always trying to tweak it a little more to make it a little easier for my clients, a little, you know-
Tilly: Sure.
Jein Yi: But that part I haven’t been able to figure out yet, making it go faster,.
Tilly: Yeah, it was- you get this realization early on where you’re like, “I want to do this. Change my voice.” And you’re like, “Oh, God, it’s gonna take me forever.” And you have to really, you know, you have to really just be patient. The patience is really, really hard.
Susan: It’s like working out.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: Yeah.
Tilly: Incremental gains. Tiny bits at a time.
Susan: Doing it over and over.
Tilly: Yup until you get better at it.
Susan: Yeah.
Jein Yi: My favorite Youtube video I always give all my clients, is the- the 5 year voice transition, trans voice lessons-
TIlly: Yes! I linked to it in one of my past ones, yeah.
Jein Yi: Ugh, I love that video, and I love her for putting up that video. (laughs) So yeah, it really does show her -her progression. And how, even after she got to a point where she was like, “Oh, yeah, my voice sounds feminine. Sounds good.” like she continued to work on it, and how it continued to change, and somehow it sounds more natural, even though it already sounded natural?
Tilly: Yeah yeah.
Jein Yi: I just think it’s such a great example. I’m so glad she has that video up in the world.
Tilly: So one of the hardest parts for me, with speech therapy ,was how much I had to remember before talking, and it took so long for it to become second nature. And I’ve mentioned this before, but I came up with my own little mnemonic device to help me remember all the different techniques and I wanted to go through them. And I was wondering if you could just give brief explanations to people on- on what those things are. So they know, like, all of the different things that you have to work on. So my mnemonic device was DISTERB, spelled with an E and not a U, and the D is for diaphragmatic breathing.
Jein Yi: So diaphragmatic breathing is, I mean it- the core idea behind it is the breath support. You want to make sure that you’re working with enough breath. Right? So-
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: You know, abdominal breathing. I say, you put your hands on your rib cages and try to breathe into your hands so that your hands, your- your rib, the cages expand into your hands. That is diaphragmatic/abdominal breathing. Most people, that doesn’t come easily to them. Most people are more used to a shallower kind of chest or shoulder-movement sort of breathing. So I usually tell people, lie down, put your hands on your rib cages and breathe in and out. And when you’re lying down most people will be using that sort of breathing, that diaphragmatic abdominal breathing. And then, once you get the feel for that, then try sitting up and see if you could replicate that, and then, you know, start incorporating other things that you normally do like brushing your teeth, or I’m taking a shower… something that you don’t have to think so hard about to do while you’re checking in with your breathing to see, “Am I still doing that? Yes, I am.” And you know eventually that turns into something that you do normally.
Tilly: Yeah. And it was really- see, that’s one of the things that I was so surprised by, because you don’t think about your breathing as being part of speech, but it gives you so much more air to work with when you’re talking. It made a really big difference, and it- it took me a while to figure out how to do it. Okay, so the I is for intonation.
Jein Yi: So intonation. What we mean by that is the- I just simply describe it as the ups and downs in your sentences. So for voice feminization, we look at increasing the intonation. So I always- My example is (flatly), “My name is Jein, and I’m a speech pathologist.” I could increase the intonation by saying (animatedly), “My name is Jein, and I’m a speech pathologist.” For masculinization, typical American English intonation tends to kind of start higher and go lower and flatten out is usually what I explain it as. So “My name is Jein, and I’m a speech pathologist.” That’s more of the masculine intonation, or the masculine-sounding, masculine-perceived intonation. And yeah. So we worked, Tilly and I worked on increasing that intonation ,having more bounce. I always tell people I don’t want you to sound like you’re talking to a 5 year old unless you want to. (laughter) But yeah, you know, we- in practice, that’s what we do initially, because your vocal cords aren’t used to stretching and moving so much. And we gotta teach your vocal chords how- you know, the feeling, and when when we kind of overdo it like that, then you learn the control so that you can fine-tune it to get it to the level that you feel comfortable with. Just you know, I always say… a little more animated, a little more bounce is what we’re aiming for usually.
Tilly: Yeah, you’re right, though, it was really funny, because at the beginning it- when I was recording and listening back, it sounds like you’re a kindergarten teacher or something, you know, the way you have to learn it. And so yeah, it’s really goofy.
Susan: And then you get to valley girl. (laughs)
Jein Yi: (laughs)
Tilly: Yeah. Right. Okay. So now, I don’t know if this one applies to other people as much as it did me. But the S was for slow down, because I was always going way too fast, and if you slow it down even further than normal speech. (speaks very slowly) If you go really slow, (back to normal speed) you can focus on all the different things as you’re speaking, which was really weird. So do- do you find a lot of people have that same issue?
Jein Yi: Yes, and you know, I understand why people do it, because they’re- they just want to speak naturally. They don’t want to sound- all the weird things that I make people do, they don’t want to sound like that.
Tilly and Susan: (laughter)
Jein Yi: So I get it. (laughs) But I’m always cuing my- my clients. “Okay, I want you to do that again. But I want you to slow it down so that you can really listen to yourself, or you can really feel for what we’re aiming for.”
Tilly: That was beautiful, by the way. I haven’t heard that from you in a long time. I’m all nostalgic for it, so.
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: Aww! (laughs) Yes, that is a cue. That is a real cue that I give so yes, Tilly has heard that..
T: Many, many times! Okay, and the T is for tongue positioning.
Jein Yi: Yes, so, tongue positioning. I’m gonna be honest with you and say that this is a me thing. This is a Jein-method thing. (laughs)
Tilly: Okay.
Susan: Okay!
Jein Yi: I don’t think all, or if many teach a tongue positioning at all. But for me I found that- I have found that it works so-
Tilly: I was really helpful for me, yeah.
Jein Yi: Okay, good, I’m glad! So what we mean by tongue positioning is, you know, talking about the vocal tract, and- and resonance. The space that the sound resonates in, we want that to get a little bit smaller. And the space we’re really looking at is the oral cavity. So a lot- I think when you read online about any sort of resonance, they say “Oh bring it into your oral cavity. Bring it forward.” But the oral and nasal cavity tend to, in my opinion- it’s still pretty large, so to kind of make it a little bit smaller, I tell my clients to position their tongue a little bit higher. The back of your tongue should be pulled up so that it’s touching your upper molars. Now we’re not pushing it up so that you’re talking like (talks with tongue in the way) this. (speaking normally again) No, you’re not pushing it up. You’re just- it’s just resting up there. It just- you just want to feel the upper molars on the sides of your tongue.
Tilly: Yeah, it was really weird to get used to talking that way. But it really helpsDo you go the other way for voice masculinization? Do you try to get them to like, drop it any, or do- do most people already keep it dropped as sort of the default position?
Jein Yi: I think that most people, while the front of their tongue, the tongue tip rests… up? The back of their tongue doesn’t, it’s- it’s not completely down. That’s not completely up, but it’s not completely up either. I don’t usually tell people about tongue positioning when I’m working on voice masculinization. I usually- you know how we did ee-ifying?
Tilly: That’s the next one!
Jein Yi: Well I do aw-ifying for voice masculinization.
Susan: Ahh, okay.
Jein Yi: And in doing “aw” your tongue automatically has to drop. So yeah, I don’t target it specifically. It’s not somewhere- something where you have to tell yourself to hold it in a certain position. But it, you know- it’s indirectly talked about later on.
Tilly: Okay, yeah. And then, so the E is for ee-ifying vowels, or aw-ifying. So could you explain what that means?
Jein Yi: Yes, so. Consonants! We can’t really change the sound of consonants. (laughs) But vowels are where we can really change the sound, and vowels are where we can really change the resonance. And again, the size and shape of where things are vibrating. So when we say “ee” versus “aw,” why doesn’t everybody try it right now? (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Tilly: (laughs) That’s right listeners, do it at home.
Jein Yi: (laughs)
Susan: So “ee” is like using less of the space inside your mouth?
Jein Yi: Mmhm. Because when you go-
Susan: So then “aw” is using more of it…
Jein Yi: Exactly.
Susan: …which would deepen, versus… I se e.
Jein Yi: Mmhm.
Tilly: You’re catching on!
Susan: I gettin’ it!
Jein Yi: When you say “ee,” everything gets smaller in your mouth.
Susan: Uh huh.
Jein Yi: Everything tightens, it’s smaller. Versus when you go “aw,” your jaw drops, you have all that space. So ee-ifying your vowels, I guess, as an example would be like, you know, if I saw-
what’s one of our sentences, Tilly? (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Tilly: Oh it’s been years now, I don’t remember! there were so many, I had all those sheets!
Jein Yi: What was one that my clients always like? “I adore the lore behind Al Gore” is one that everybody really likes. (laughs) So-
Susan: That’s hilarious.
Jein Yi: Normally, it’s “I adore the lore behind Al Gore.” Now, when we ee-ify it you tighten your- you know, you put your mouth in the position of “ee,” “eeee”, (the vowels are shorter, lighter, and brighter and sound very different, but I don’t know how to make that clear in transcript, sorry!) “I adore the lore behind Al Gore.” It changes the sound, right? “I adore the lore, I adore the lore,” it’s lighter, it’s brighter. So that’s that resonance change. And then for aw-ifying, for our people who want to masculinize, for aw-ifying, (laughs) “sweet dreams are made of these” is what I like to use, so (normal vowels) “sweet dreams are made of these.” If I aw-ify it, “aw”, “awww”, (the vowels sound deeper and more resonant, again hard to explain!) “sweet dreams are made of these. ” in the video, you can see my mouth (higher and brighter) “these” instead of (lower and more resonant) “these.” I’m not closing my jaw as much. I’m leaving a little space in there, so that there’s more space to resonate.
Tilly: Excellent.
Susan: That is so cool.
Tilly: Isn’t it?
Susan: Yeah!
Tilly: The science with it is so amazing. Okay, so then R is resonance-
Susan: Which you already said. (laughs)
Tilly: Right, but if we could talk a little bit about that, because that was the hardest thing for me, and sometimes I feel like even now it still slips. You probably heard it slip in this call, and you’ve been very kind to not call me on it.
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: (laughs) I’m not going to- you know, I’m not here to listen to your voice and judge, right?
Susan: No, that’s work.
Tilly: That’s right.
Jein Yi: (laughs) But also, I always say, right? It’s not about being perfect. It’s not about holding something perfectly for 100 percent, nobody does that. My own resonance changes as I’m talking, that’s not the point. So… in talking about pitfalls, that is something that I do see. You know, of course, it makes sense, right? It’s a goal you’re working towards. So people want to do it perfectly. 100% of the time. And I always tell my tell my clients like… it’s not about doing it perfectly 100% of the time. Nobody can do it 100% of the time. You know, again, like, even when I’m talking, my resonance changes, and I’m not working on anything. So it’s just getting to a place where you feel like you’re doing it consistently enough where the sound of your voice is- it makes you happy. So… going back to resonance, right? Sorry. (laughs)
Tilly: Yes!
Jein Yi: Resonance, I always say, is the most important part of of changing your voice. And I break it up into stages, and resonance is a stage where it usually takes the longest to achieve but it makes the biggest changes in your voice. It’s where your voice can actually more permanently change. Now, “permanent” used loosely, because if you want it to be permanent, it will be permanent. If you don’t want it to be, it won’t be. But, yeah, resonance is, you know, it’s where your voice- or where it, where the sound, or of the space and the placing of where the sound is vibrating. It’s- it’s how we manipulate the size of our oral cavity to create the sound that we’re aiming for.
Tilly: Right. And in voice feminization like I went through, that’s trying to get that- feel that vibration sort of up by your lips, and that was really hard for me, because I don’t- even now I still don’t- I barely feel it. I don’t know. I think a lot of people can feel it better. It was really hard. I’m like, where is it? Am I doing it right?
Jein Yi: So, yeah, so yeah, that- the vibration part is really difficult for people to feel. And I think, for, like singers, you know, they’re trained, right? They’re trained to be able to put their voice out, and all different- like they have the chest voice, and head voice, and whatever. I’m not a singer, so I get-
Tilly: Me neither.
Jein Yi: I get why it’s hard. Because when I was learning it, when I was just learning oral resonance in grad school, me trying to do it was just so difficult. But essentially, when we go “mmm” with an “m,” “mmm” we feel the vibrations on our lips, sometimes in our nose, like anywhere in that facial area, we say okay, we got that forward resonance. Now for voice feminization, I actually- again, I said oral cavity, still pretty large. I like to make it a little bit smaller. It’s the soft palate where I usually kind of tell people to try to get the vibrations.
So the soft palate, if you put your tongue up behind your teeth and run it all the way back, you’ll notice it goes from hard to soft, right? So hard palate, soft palate. The soft palate is kind of where I like to get people to get their vibrations for voice feminization, if they can feel it. It’s a very subtle…
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: …vibration. And then for a voice masculinization, I kind of try to bring it down a little more into the chest. So I usually tell people “put your hand right here,” and when I say chest, it’s not so far down, it’s actually just like right below your neck, and if you go “ee” versus “aw” I think you’ll really feel the chest vibrating more.
Tilly: And then the B was for breathiness.
Jein Yi: Ah, breathiness. (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: This is something that my voice feminization clients really struggle with, because most don’t want a breathy sounding voice, which I get. So I always kind of start off with a disclaimer like, this practice voice is absolutely not at all the voice I am aiming for for you, unless this is what you want. Breathiness, kind of like I mentioned with the intonation, you know, I start off with the breathiness because, like sounding really breathy, like- (super breathy voice) like talking like this-
Tilly: (super breathy voice) Yeah.
Jein Yi: (back to normal voice, laughs) Which, as you can see, Tilly does not sound like that right now, right? (laughs)
Tilly: No, I don’t!
Susan: But you would do it.-
Tilly: I did.
Susan: And I would not be able to hear you ever, it was very frustrating!
TIlly: When I was working on it, yeah.
Susan: When you were working on it.
Tilly: (super breathy quiet voice) And my voice was like this all the time-
Susan: Like, I can’t- okay.
Jein Yi: (laughs)
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: Yeah, so it’s another, you know, kind of training step. It’s to be able to control the breath and the air flow. I feel like most, not all, but most of my voice feminization clients come in not-not having enough air coming out when they’re speaking, and it’s just full vocal core closure. Well, again, I can’t really say this because I didn’t look inside, but like just simplifying things, just simplifying things, it sounds like there is not a lot of air coming through and it’s all voice.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: And so we’re basically teaching how taking your vocal cords ,and your respiratory system, you know, just let out a little bit of that air while you’re voicing, and that’ll create some of that lighter kind of voice that we associate with a more feminine voice. So the example I give is, if- so, my voice tends to be actually pretty- mine’s more on the breathier side, just normally. But if I were to do kind of like this like (affects more forceful voice) full, you know, I’m really trying to be forceful like this is how I’m talking (back to normal voice) versus (affects very light and breathy voice) like, yeah, really want to talk breathy. And I don’t know. This is my like, yoga teacher, voice or whatever…
Tilly and Susan: (laughter)
Jein Yi: (laughs, still breathy) Namaste, right? (back to normal voice) As someone who has never taken any of the classes. (laughs)
Susan: (laughs)
Jein Yi: And then there’s this middle ground where, the way I’m talking right now, where there is some of that lightness and that breath coming through, but it isn’t this like, pushed, forceful quality. And I think that’s that quality that people do want. They don’t want to do the breathiness part, which again I get. But I teach it as a way to teach you control, because I want you to be able you to choose how much breathiness you want- you can have in your voice, right? So I want you to be modulate instead of me getting you to a point where, yeah, we’re at, like, somewhere in between. And we’re good to go. I want you to be able to choose, and you to be able to experiment with it and see what you like the sound of the best.
Tilly: Yeah, the thing that breathiness helped me the most with was not hitting the vowels in the middle of words too hard because I was- I would always push to get the vowels out. And so the breathiness, I don’t want to talk like that, but it helped train me to hit the vowels softer and let more air out, so that it’s not so forceful on every vowel, which helps with the “not sounding so much like a man,” for me, so.
Okay, so I know speech therapy isn’t covered by insurance for a lot of trans folks that are out there. And for reasons that I’ve talked about in multiple episodes of this show, trans people are much more likely to be financially strained than cCis people are, and many of them can’t afford it. And I see a lot of them trying to work on their own, on their voices based on, like, Youtube tutorials. But I’ve seen some of those, and I’ve just cringed at what they were telling people to do. And I’m so afraid people watching are gonna end up hurting themselves. So I was hoping maybe you had some tips that you could give folks on how to safely practice on their own.
Susan: Although maybe we should start with the damage that people can do to them.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: So I think now, it’s pretty widely known that the- you know the swallow-hold, you know, swallow and holding your larynx up, is something that can cause a lot of strain. But back when I started in the beginning, that was a very common thing that people taught.
Susan: Oh, that’s interesting.
Jein Yi: Yeah, to raise your larynx, and and then, therefore, hoping to raise the pitch as well. So you swallow, (ultra high and strained voice) hold, and, as you can see, like (normal voice)I’m trying, and you can see that- how it changed my vocal quality.
Susan: Yikes.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: And that was some- I’m obviously not doing it as well as some people, because I have seen some trans women have- you know their voices sound very feminine, and they sound- I think it sounds great. But for a lot of people that does not work. That’s the thing it works for some, but it doesn’t work for others. And this is one that commonly, for the people it doesn’t work for, causes a lot of vocal strain. I have had people who have practiced on their own, and they and can tell it’s really, you know, it was hurting their voice. And so they ended up coming into speech therapy, and we had to do normal voice therapy. Not you know, gender-affirming voice training? But normal voice therapy in the beginning, so that I- we could, you know, get that strain out of- out of the throat. And then we started working on gender-affirming training.
So yeah, definitely strain or sometimes people will, you know, try to talk in a pitch that- you know, pitch we can raise. But it has to be gradual, and I feel like if that isn’t something that the person was aware of, they will kind of start at a pitch that’s a little too high for them, and that causes strain as well. Some people will just end up having a lot of throat pain. So my biggest kind of take home for anybody is when you’re doing these, you know, practices- practice things on your own, whether it be through podcasts, Youtube, Reddit, just trying things on your own… if it’s uncomfortable, you know, to the point of pain, stop! You’re either not- It’s either not for you- that method is not for you, or you’re not doing it the way that it was meant to be done. Because of probably lack of thorough instruction, most likely, because people, you know, they usually give instructions in a way that makes sense to them. But they, you know, they probably haven’t talked to a lot of people, and- and have seen, like the common issues, in a way, so that they could kind of reword their instructions, right? So if you’re feeling pain definitely- that’s just- stop that one and try to try to find something else.
And as it- when it comes to discomfort, I think, Tilly, you could probably speak a little better too but there are different types of discomfort right? Like there is a “I’m working hard,” and “I’m a little fatigued,” sort of like “my throat feels a little tired” sort of discomfort, and then there’s actual like, “ooh, this doesn’t feel right” discomfort when you’re practicing. So I think learning kind of the difference between the two is probably going to be really helpful in, like, self-practice. So I don’t know, Tilly, if you could kind of elaborate on the like- “this feels like I’m doing something, but it’s a little tired. So this is my sign rest,” sort of feeling, I don’t know.
Tilly: Yeah, I think-
Susan: Did you ever really screw up?
Tilly: What do you mean?
Susan: (laughs) Like, go back and she’s like, “No, you were doing that wrong.”
TIlly: Oh, sure, all the time.
Susan: Okay!
Jein Yi: (laughs)
Susan: See, that’s important to know.
Tilly: Yeah.
Susan: People should know that.
Tilly: Right. Yeah, you mess up and you-
Suan: You need feedback.
Tilly: You do. But yeah, I think the best way to describe it, probably- it’s like any other muscle in your body where, like, you can tell if you’re like- if you were working out, or you know, like, if you’re moving and your arms get super tired, you know, when they’re tired from use. And you know the difference between that and, “Oh, my god something’s wrong with my arm.”
Susan: Right.
Tilly: This really hurts, right.
Susan: It’s like working a muscle versus pulling a muscle.
Tilly: Right. And I found there were times when other stuff got in the way too. Like if I was really congested, I couldn’t do it, or it would hurt. It would feel like I was straining. There were a couple- I think there was even one time you stopped our session like 5 min in, because you said, your voice is strained. You’re- this is- you’re gonna hurt yourself if you keep going. So I think the most important thing is to just yeah, like you said, pay attention to that. And if you’re tired, if your voice is tired, your throat is tired… to rest it, not not keep pushing. Because then you just are gonna really mess things up.
Jein Yi: Yeah, I really always, you know, tell my clients I understand that this is something that is really important to you. And I understand that you want this to happen sooner than later. But pushing through the pain, and you know, trying to make it go faster is only going to lengthen the time of our sessions, and like the number of sessions, because then we’re gonna have to undo the strain, and whatever new habit that you learned. So always, always listen to your body.
Tilly: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here, Jein, and thank you again for helping make my life better and making-
Jein Yi: Aw.
Tilly: I couldn’t have made this podcast or my audio book, which is out now, the trans allegories of the matrix – begin transmission– I couldn’t have done any of those on my own without you. So I- you know, where my voice used to be, I could never have stood listening to myself for that long. So you made all of this possible. So thank you so much.
Jein Yi: Aww.
Susan: And I’m sure there’s people out there, too, who are scared about even looking into voice therapy. They have no idea. So I’m thinking this is going to help demystify it a little bit.
Tilly: I hope so, yeah.
Jein Yi: I hope so.
Susan: Because sometimes you don’t even know what you’re getting into, right? It’s like, it’s helpful to like at least like know, and to be like okay, let me sit with this a little bit and think about it.
Tilly: Yeah.
Jein Yi: No, no, Susan, that’s actually a great point. Because when my clients come in for an evaluation, this- I essentially this, what we talked about in our podcast today, like that’s- I give a quick like crash course of like this is what it’s gonna look like. It’s an up quick outline right? Like this is what it’s gonna look like. Do you have any questions? Or do you feel uncomfortable about about anything?Like that’s- yeah. But that’s definitely it. Like I want, I give my clients kind of like the big picture first, so that they know what they’re getting themselves into. And if it’s not something they wanted, then, like they don’t have to come back for the next session. You know, it’s their choice. So yeah, you’re right. It’s a- it’s yeah, I’m sure it’s demystified it for some people.
Tilly: Well, I never thought that my voice could sound the way that it does now, or that I would love it as much as I do. So thank you again, because you really you- really did change my life for the better.
Jein Yi: Aw, well thank you, Tilly. Those are very nice words, and it’s- and to me, you know, it’s just- it makes me happy, and it makes all the hard work, you know, always feel so worth it when I know that my client and the person in front of me is so happy with the voice that they have, so.
Tilly: Well, I’m so glad that there are wonderful people like you out there helping make things better for trans people.
Jein Yi: Thank you.
Tilly Bridges, end transmission.
tillysbridges@gmail.com
